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Post by administrator on Nov 11, 2009 9:42:35 GMT 1
Elswhere, haflinger has raised this query : was the Palmer Special also known as the Gnat - and if the Gnat was originally a nickname devised by 1930s driver Jean Reville?
For previous references, please go to:
GENERAL BOARD then GENERAL DISCUSSION then USAF Skirrow driver.
::::::::::: derek New Member
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Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 15 Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ] Re: USAF Skirrow driver « Reply #5 Yesterday at 10:33am » The photo from the Hulton picture library is of Jean Reville driving one of his Palmer Specials. The photo was taken on April 10th 1935 at Lea Bridge. The caption with the photo says that it was taken whilst he was breaking the four lap track record! Reville always seems to be breaking one record or another! I believe the engine is a V-twin JAP.
Derek Bridgett Newcastle-under-Lyme
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haflinger121 Junior Member member is offline Joined: Apr 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 97 Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ] Re: USAF Skirrow driver « Reply #6 Yesterday at 10:20pm » Thanks Derek, I know we can always rely on you for a goodly bit of info! Tell me: are a Palmer Special and a Gnat technically the same thing or not? The Hulton picture with Reville laying down alongside the car is taken from above, and the signwriting definitely says Palmer Special on the front, and The Gnat on the bonnet. Or am I simply wrong to talk about "Gnats" at all - maybe, strictly speaking, they were all Palmer Specials, with one particular car (Reville's) having the nick name, The Gnat?
If you'd asked me to take a £1 bet on where that other picture was, Lea Bridge is where I would have plumped for! But the only pics I have of Lea Bridge not only don't show the corners, the surroundings don't look anything like that either. I wonder what Reville's time was. We have a programme here from Whit Monday, June 10th '35, by which time the lap record is attributed to Vic Gillow in 23 seconds dead.
It's interesting that you think the engine is a V-twin JAP, which to my way of thinking, would make it the same 998cc motor used in Skirrows. It would also mean that it was air cooled, which would make a nonsense of my suggestion that one of these cars was later fitted with an expansion tank. But it certainly looks like The Gnat has a very neat radiator (complete with rad cap), meaning it would be water cooled. Confused.com!
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derek
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Post by derek on Nov 12, 2009 11:18:46 GMT 1
I gave up long ago trying to sort out all the cars that Reville built. However if you read Dave Hauntons articles about Reville you should get some idea of how the company opperated.
As far as i can work out the name "Gnat" was given to Revilles own midgets; hence the cars that went to OZ in late 35 were refered to as "Gnats"
If you can get your hands on a copy of "Light Car" Nov 27th 1934 p 823, there is a photo of two Palmer Specials; one with the body on and the other "naked". The photo clearly shows the cars fitted with v-twin air cooled JAP's. The "expansion tank" on the Palmer was probably a large air box covering the carbs to keep out the dirt. The JAP engined Elto's had a similar arrangement.
Derek Bridgett Newcastle-under-Lyme
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Post by administrator on Nov 12, 2009 15:02:26 GMT 1
Message from admin aka John Hyam: This is what I wrote in Chapter Two of the "UK Midget Cars History" (as on this site):
The first purpose-built midget car was the Palmer Special, which later became the ‘Gnat’ and was driven by the Palace star Reville. He eventually formed a company to promote midget car racing in Britain.
Of some inconvenience for its driver was the fact that the exhaust pipe passed between the driver’s knees. As with the later Skirrow midgets. it ran with a JAP ohv Vee-twin 998cc engine. There was no gear box and the ‘Gnat’ was front-wheel drive. These were driven by a motorcycle chain. With its 4ft 8in wheelbase, the ‘Gnat’ weighed 4.5 hundredweight.
A supporter of the period, Jack Davidson from Chessington, Surrey, recalled, “I remember the Palmer Special driven by Jean Reville. They were built in a garage near the old Nelson Hospital in Kingston Road, Merton. I used to go to the Palace to watch them race. I travelled with two friends who used to push start the cars at meetings.
“While Reville’s car was fitted with a JAP engine, there were plans to build another midget running with an Austin-seven engine and a self-starter to get over push starts.”
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Post by tobyhalter on Nov 12, 2009 16:29:56 GMT 1
Message from admin aka John Hyam: This is what I wrote in Chapter Two of the "UK Midget Cars History" (as on this site): The first purpose-built midget car was the Palmer Special, which later became the ‘Gnat’ and was driven by the Palace star Reville. He eventually formed a company to promote midget car racing in Britain.
Of some inconvenience for its driver was the fact that the exhaust pipe passed between the driver’s knees. As with the later Skirrow midgets. it ran with a JAP ohv Vee-twin 998cc engine. There was no gear box and the ‘Gnat’ was front-wheel drive. These were driven by a motorcycle chain. With its 4ft 8in wheelbase, the ‘Gnat’ weighed 4.5 hundredweight.
A supporter of the period, Jack Davidson from Chessington, Surrey, recalled, “I remember the Palmer Special driven by Jean Reville. They were built in a garage near the old Nelson Hospital in Kingston Road, Merton. I used to go to the Palace to watch them race. I travelled with two friends who used to push start the cars at meetings.
“While Reville’s car was fitted with a JAP engine, there were plans to build another midget running with an Austin-seven engine and a self-starter to get over push starts.”All rather confusing writing. I'm still unclear if a Palmer Special was a Gnat. We need something more specific than what's written in this quote. And did the Austin Seven project ever materialise - that was modern thinking for the early 1930s.
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Post by administrator on Nov 13, 2009 16:26:02 GMT 1
The mystery is solved! The Palmer Special and the Gnat were the same car. Look at the bodywork of this 1935 photo of Jean Reville at work. www.oldstox.com/TheEarlyDays.htmAttachments:
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Post by administrator on Nov 13, 2009 16:30:14 GMT 1
Gnat 2[/img] Jean Reville in action driving a Palmer Special/Gnat (??) at Lea Bridge in 1935. The stadium can be identified by the warehouses which were a feature of this part of Lea Bridge Road in East London. www.oldstox.com/TheEarlyDays.htm
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Post by tobyhalter on Nov 14, 2009 10:36:56 GMT 1
In the section on this site about Jean Reville, the author David Haunton in chapter two wrote:
The Gnat In November 1934, Reville’s publicity machine announced a new car in the motoring press, while the Wimbledon Boro’ News had an early picture of Reville himself in ‘his latest baby car’ on 7 December.
This was the Gnat, a specially designed midget racer with a 992cc JAP motorcycle engine, one gear and one small brake. Initially the exhaust pipe ran between the driver’s knees, which ‘must have added to the excitement’. Only six feet long, the Gnat was billed as the ‘World’s Smallest Racing Car’, with ‘Jean Reville’ prominent in its paintwork, and ‘Palmer Special’ rather more quietly across the radiator. In January,
The Light Car had portrait photos of the machine itself, and commented approvingly that the ‘Palmer-Reville duo had done a great deal of serious thinking on the subject of the right kind of dirt-track car’. This was followed on 1 February by news of design changes as a result of testing. (But where were the test runs held ?) Later opinion was not so flattering: ‘unbelievably crude’ was one Australian comment delivered decades later with 100% hindsight – but what else could be expected of two pioneering young men with spanners ?
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Post by haflinger121 on Nov 14, 2009 19:05:50 GMT 1
Here is the Light Car magazine article of 27/11/34 to which Derek referred. It makes it 100% clear that these cars, at least, were most definitely powered by V-twin JAP motors. Attachments:
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Post by tobyhalter on Nov 15, 2009 15:26:25 GMT 1
I think we now have conclusive evidence that the Palmer Special and the Gnat were the same car.
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derek
Junior Member
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Post by derek on Nov 21, 2009 10:58:57 GMT 1
Further to the photo of Jean Reville breaking the Lea Bridge track record. After a little searching around I found the same photo in Speedway Mirror, the caption states that "his time was 87s,- equal to a speed of over 41mph".
Derek Bridgett Newcastle-under-Lyme
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Post by dirtpilot on Dec 10, 2009 12:49:47 GMT 1
Message from admin aka John Hyam: This is what I wrote in Chapter Two of the "UK Midget Cars History" (as on this site): The first purpose-built midget car was the Palmer Special, which later became the ‘Gnat’ and was driven by the Palace star Reville. He eventually formed a company to promote midget car racing in Britain.
Of some inconvenience for its driver was the fact that the exhaust pipe passed between the driver’s knees. As with the later Skirrow midgets. it ran with a JAP ohv Vee-twin 998cc engine. There was no gear box and the ‘Gnat’ was front-wheel drive. These were driven by a motorcycle chain. With its 4ft 8in wheelbase, the ‘Gnat’ weighed 4.5 hundredweight.
A supporter of the period, Jack Davidson from Chessington, Surrey, recalled, “I remember the Palmer Special driven by Jean Reville. They were built in a garage near the old Nelson Hospital in Kingston Road, Merton. I used to go to the Palace to watch them race. I travelled with two friends who used to push start the cars at meetings.
“While Reville’s car was fitted with a JAP engine, there were plans to build another midget running with an Austin-seven engine and a self-starter to get over push starts.”All rather confusing writing. I'm still unclear if a Palmer Special was a Gnat. We need something more specific than what's written in this quote. And did the Austin Seven project ever materialise - that was modern thinking for the early 1930s. Jack Davidson's recollection is probably misleading,the car driven at CP & other places by Reville in 1934 was not a midget but a Light Car called a Palmer Special,when the small cars were built they were still called Palmer Specials but Reville referred to them as "Gnats" the car pictured at Lea Bridge in April 1935 is the same car as at the 1935 CP meeting.In Australia the 3 cars were referred to as "Gnats." In Reville's interview & letters he made no mention of Austin 7 project,the only mention of Austin 7 relates to the cars that went to Australia as having the original Austin 7 suspension so i think it is fairly safe to say it was a non item. Reville's cars had nothing to do with Jap 8/80 engines they were not invented then,that is why the exhaust went between the legs,there is a pic of an Australian midget with an 8/60 with the pipes both out one side (too easy) Revilles car in Australia had a 500cc DT Jap engine whilst the other 2 had Jap Twin 8/60 engines, i would think that Reville raced mainly with the 500 unless he had a problem. The company that Revilled formed was to build cars not the promotion of speedway.
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Post by dirtpilot on Dec 11, 2009 10:50:59 GMT 1
The mystery is solved! The Palmer Special and the Gnat were the same car. Look at the bodywork of this 1935 photo of Jean Reville at work. www.oldstox.com/TheEarlyDays.htmThis car is what Reville called "The Flying-Gnat",Reville made a lot of claims about this car but there is no independant information to back up his story so i won't bother going into the details.On Pg 20 top photo in DB's book is a car which was probably the original Flying-Gnat whether Reville rebuilt/modified that car to get this we'll probably never know but looking at the picture it is light years ahead of anything else at the time.The caption states that the car was at a White City meeting 1935 personally i doubt that Reville was going to any more than a demo run or record attempt at the meeting i can't see that he would risk getting this damaged.I have not seen any other pictures of this car & the last mention of it was that it was "supposedly" going to be shipped to Australia for the tour there but owing to a shipping mix up did not go,that is Reville's version my opinion is different.
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Post by dirtpilot on Dec 11, 2009 11:21:42 GMT 1
Here is the Light Car magazine article of 27/11/34 to which Derek referred. It makes it 100% clear that these cars, at least, were most definitely powered by V-twin JAP motors. According to Reville the original engines (which i assume were BSA) were replaced by JAP single & Twin motors, this photo shows 2 cars,the unbodied one obviously has a twin,but the bodied car if you look carefully has what appears to be a small exhaust low down i doubt whether this is a Twin as you will remember the back cylinder exhaust went between the drivers legs,this car could have been anything,& assuming it is a Twin is just jumping to what might be a wrong conclusion.
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Post by haflinger121 on Dec 12, 2009 0:37:28 GMT 1
Yep, I stand corrected there dirtpilot - only the car minus the bodywork is definitely a V twin. Indeed, I am not expert enough to say that is definitely a JAP engine, it might well be something else. However, the original discussion was actually about whether in fact these cars could have been using some type of water cooled engine, so what I should really have said is, the 'naked' car certainly isn't, and the jury could still be out about the other one.
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Post by dirtpilot on Dec 15, 2009 13:04:49 GMT 1
To the best of my knowledge once Reville started on the midget cars they were all air cooled,i think any resemblance of radiators was purely cosmetic.The very early cars he raced were just BSA FrontWD conversions & were i assume water cooled.
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