HOW MANY SKIRROWS?

[administrator]

I have been told that Harry Skirrow claimed to have built 50 cars. Is this possible? Does anyone have a list of drivers and numbers pre-war that would give an indication if this is correct?

[tsrwright]

I am working on this. I have some programmes pre and post war so I will list thepre-war programmes and make a list of cars/drivers and numbers and see where that gets to. If others could then contribute from their programmes we might get near to a reliable figure.

I have a copy of a letter from Harry where he says he made 50 cars but on the face of it that seems a lot

[derek]

No one realy knows how many Skirrows were built (pretty obvious). Harry Skirrows wife once told me -via a questionnaire-
that 16 were built.
Andy Abrahams -whose father worked for Dave Hughes- told me that the number was around 14.
I think that the number built is less than 20, a few drivers shared their cars and the promoters also owned cars, loaning them out to the drivers.

[haflinger121]

Gut feel (and that's all it is) tells me that you're right Derek. I'd be surprised if any more than 20 were built and not at all surprised if it were quite a few less. As you say, it will be very difficult to sort by looking back at old progs etc, simply because so many drivers "doubled up", you had Hughes owning/lending them out, and so on.

I do think that if 50 had been made, there would probably be a few more survivors today than the rather small number that we know of, which is what - four? Ivan's two, tsr's own, the basket case that seems to have vanished in or around the fens somewhere, and....? Something in the USA, NZ or Oz perhaps?

[tsrwright]

Re survivors I am only aware of mine plus Ivan's two and Andy Abraham's as far as survivors are concerned. From the few other makes of vehicles I know a little about you would expect 20% or more to survive so less than 20 - 17 has also been mentioned - would seem more likely than 50.

[administrator]

HOW MANY SKIRROW CARS?


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Max Rutherford <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011, 10:38
Subject: Re: HOW MANY SKIRROW CARS?

Hi there,
I am not answering your question but am more interested in your interest in midget racing. I am the editor of our Vintage Speedway club newsletter and also webmaster so wondered if we could share stories or interesting items?
Where are you in the world?

Max Rutherford
Secretary/webmaster,
Historic Speedway Ass.
021 1137 054
New Zealand

[tsrwright]

Sept 30, 2011 13:10:43 GMT 1 tsrwright said:

Re survivors I am only aware of mine plus Ivan's two and Andy Abraham's as far as survivors are concerned. From the few other makes of vehicles I know a little about you would expect 20% or more to survive so less than 20 - 17 has also been mentioned - would seem more likely than 50.

I understand fixed car numbers only came in in 1938.

In a 1937 programme (Brandon 9.5.37), it is explained that there are problems getting engines from JAP and "thirty cars are ready for engines to be fitted". In the Brandon 7.7.37 programme it is stated "we had only 6 Skirrow cars in operation up to last week. Enough engines for 16 cars will be with us before you read these notes" Whether that means a total of 16 or 22 is not clear but it could be suggested that 16 or 17 (numbers which have been variously quoted) are maybe the numbers of Mk1s produced for 1937.

The Mk2 with some internal changes and a bigger body were made in 1938 and 9 and some Mk1s may be been updated but not for example by such leading drivers as Spike Rhiando and Les White

I only have copies of 3 x 1938 programmes (Brandon 24.7.38, Hanley 27.8.38, and 27.8.38 Crystal Palace) and none from 1939 and from these have extracted the attached names and numbers. As far as I know these are discrete cars all but one Skirrows (Pashley was usually in an Elto), totalling 30.

Its is probable there were other cars at other events - other Eltos of course - and more Skirrows. Its is also probable that some drivers shared cars or bought and sold them thus a car might have more than one number during these years.

As numbers as high as 98 and 99 were issued it would be useful to know if drivers picked their own numbers or if they were issued in numerical order. If the latter then obviously there were at least 48 licences issued not all of which would have been for Skirrow drivers

Whatever, it would seem there were a lot more than 16 or 17 Skirrows produced. Maybe there were 50 licences with perhaps 30 or 40 Skirrows if we assume 1938 production matched that of 1937?

If more programmes and photos for 1938 and 1939 could be examined we could see who else there was and we could get closer to a definitive list of drivers.

It should be possible to download and view the attached pdf of numbers and names

Attachments:

[tobyhalter]

That's an interesting list but would suggest that those drivers listed who drove for Belle Vue would have been in Les Hulme-copy Eltos. I'm almost certain that Billy Murden was around at this time and he drove a self-built midget car - the one he used in France in 1947 then as a guest driver in the American-organised meetings in London in1948.
But I do agree - it seems most unlikely that Harry Skirrow built 50 race cars as has been suggested.

[haflinger121]

Hi Terry. I can see you've already looked into this in some detail but, as I said earlier, I think an attempt to pin down total production by this method is doomed to fail for all the reasons you've mentioned. However, one thing I had temporarily overlooked, is that there were both Mk1 and Mk2 Skirrows. Looked at with that in mind, now 16 in total doesn't sound like enough! Harry surely must have made more than (say) eight of each?

I will have a look at some old progs later and see if I can add anything to your list. I'd bet quite a lot of money that the race numbers carried by the cars were chosen and are not indicative of total licences issued. Presently, here in the UK for instance, we have lots of National Hot Rods with race numbers in the 900's, but that doesn't mean there are nearly a thousand of them racing. Hughes himself always raced as #66, but I can see no way there were 66 cars!

You mentioned about Rhiando and car modification. That car of Ivan's has been heavily modified, presumably by Spike, as it has a moved bulkhead and different bonnet/grille to any other Skirrow. It was what enabled Hendrick (Ivan's mechanic) to recognise it for what it was. We have assumed it is a modified Mk2 but it might be a Mk1 of course, probably impossible to say now. It has no "chassis number" on the inside of the right rear of the chassis frame, unlike the ex-Hughes car which I think Ivan said has a clear number 8 stamped into it. Does your car have such a number?

[adeyp]

Harry also rescued three part built cars from the bombed remains of his house in London and took them to Devon. He rebuilt two and sold them on whilst the other became the basis of a midget road car that he used to commute between Plymouth and London. All of his records were also lost in the London bombings during WW2 so even Harry had no surviving records of how many cars were actually built.

[tsrwright]

Thanks for the input. The 16 I mentioned would have been 1937 only but note mention of 30 chassis being without engines in that year.

The list I have only has one known Elto driver - Ginger Pashley - as far as I know.

A reasonably definitive list of drivers and numbers is a useful target even if it still leaves us uncertain about Skirrow numbers.

Any pictures I have seen of Spike prewar all show him in a Mk1. I suspect, but don't know, that the modifications were post-war. Apart from these, by the way, Spike's name and other graphics have been exposed below the outer paint.

I'll try and post some pics seperately.

PS No numbers found on my chassis which is an hundreds of bead blasted bits at the moment, Again will post pics in due course

[tsrwright]

Spike in Mk1 Skirrow said to be 1938 at Belle Vue but with no number must be 1937 (so maybe he did modify his car prewar?).

Great pic but where did I get it?

Attachments:

[tsrwright]

Rhiando Skirrow at Ivan Dutton's this summer

Attachments:

[haflinger121]

Hah! That looks like one of my own photos, taken the same day we went crawling underneath looking for a "chassis number"!

[tsrwright]

Doesn't matter but it's one of mine.