Post by haflinger121 on Jun 29, 2010 21:46:14 GMT 1
According to my currency converter, 50,000.00 CAD = 31,367.58 GBP, and then there would be shipping to the UK. I hope the seller will pardon me for saying that this seems a trifle expensive to me. The ex-Dave Hughes car (admittedly unrestored, but certainly with a huge amount of 'original patina' because of that) sold only a few years back for around about £11,000 and I would consider that to be a rather more interesting car, historically speaking. Or am I just being dog-in-the-manger and unrealistic because I can't afford it?
I think the history of the car is that in the late 1930s it was owned and raced by Les White from Epsom, Surrey. For many years after the war it was displayed in his car showroom. Then, I think after he died, his son Malcolm had it for a time then sold it on to Joey Gertler in America. He then sold it to its present owner. The £31k-plus could be value for money, there are porobably only three Skirrow around now. But it does seem a lot of money in regard to its pre-WW2 sell price which I think was £185 although I don't know what that would be worth these days. It looks a nice car and although I can't afford it at least we can all look and admire it, as we can all the other excellent cars that are now showing elsewhere on this site. I hope it eventually goes to a good home - I would suggest it should be put up for sale on USA ebay which has featured many midgets for sale over they years.
Many thanks for explaining that and, once again, my apologies for casting doubt on the value of the car. You may be interested to know that the guy who owns the ex-Hughes car is a friend of mine from way back. He has told me more than once that he could have bought the £11K Skirrow for peanuts if it hadn't been for competition from some Morgan enthusiasts who were only after it for the engine and wanted to break the car. It's a sad state of affairs but underlines the absolute truth of what you're saying. It also explains why (and I've wondered before) why Brough Superior collectors are so interested in Skirrows!
Post by memaerobilia on Jul 2, 2010 18:10:47 GMT 1
Hi; I am enjoying this discussion of the Skirrow, as my late father Joe Gertler Sr. and I, owned this Skirrow for 36 years, from 1973-2009. * it was ALWAYS kept stored in climate controlled building with our other museum cars & other collections, during that whole time.. My father was a professional race car builder (The Raceway Garage in New York) from pre-WWII and active, full-time in race car building (Mostly midgets)through the early 1960s. In early 70s, with vintage racing clubs becoming more active, we restored another 38 early cars (mostly pre-war midgets-some sprint cars) together. To me, the most obvious factor being overlooked in this discussion is the fact that this Skirrow appeared to have Never been modified or updated since new. To find a completely original, unaltered, 100% complete, race car, that survived WWII scrap drives and is a virtual race car Time Capsule, is a wonder rarely encountered. Yes the Brough Superior relation is a value to be considered. But the Skirrow in Original, as raced during 1930s, condition, rates its place (and value) in history as more important, and more desirable than the most expensive, and detailed restorations. Whenever my father or I would take this car to a vintage or race , or sports car show, this four-wheel-drive, chain-drives to front AND rear, Original condition/state racer would immediately draw most of the attendance crowd away from the most exotic Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc etc. PLUS, being unrestored, We could allow children and race car fans to sit in it to have their treasured photos taken with ear to ear smiles. I hope it finds a good home, again..
As one who was sat at the NEC auction a few years back its good to hear the story of this particular car residing across the pond. Luckily for us Ivan was committed to adding the Dave Hughes car to his oval racing collection as there were definitely a number of bike enthusiasts bidding for the engine alone. So there are at least two survivors - I've heard of two more at least but until I see them cannot confirm
Joe, Nice to hear from you again and I sure hope you are not too angry that I am offering the Skirrow up. Cheers, Barry
Hi Barry; I told you when you came for it, that I got a price I was satisfied with, and would not feel remorse if you sold it on, or sold it for more, or traded it, etc etc. It is YOUR car now, to do with as you please. I AM very happy to hear all the positive news about the condition of the engine, and the work/improvement/restoration of the engine. It seems you HAVE had some fun with it, and I am so glad. Keep us posted. You were a pleasure to deal with and to meet with. I learned a lot just from our short meeting. (and we had so many collector and enthusiast friends in common., all over the world..) It is a small world. I know you enjoy the Skirrow as much as I did, whether for a short or a long time. All best wishes.
Post by haflinger121 on Jul 7, 2010 23:33:50 GMT 1
Hi Barry. Thanks so much for posting those photos. Would that I had that Rye House poster in my collection! I wouldn't mind the Skirrow bonnet badge either but, quite frankly, I'd sooner have the whole car! Ah well, if my lottery numbers come up soon, I'll be in touch - you can count on it.
Post by haflinger121 on Jul 8, 2010 23:42:05 GMT 1
It's great when things come together like your meet with Jack Milne. I count myself very fortunate to have met Richard Petty in a similar way. Got an invite to look over his workshops at Level Cross but he wasn't supposed to be there. Turned out he was anyway - I'd have travelled to the States for that precious and exclusive hour or so of chat alone, without any sort of holiday being involved!
If you have some replica Skirrow badges made, I'd certainly be up for one. Not the same as having the real thing, I know, but a darn good second best. A guy called Nick Barber - who organises memorabilia swap meets and auctions over here - had some replica Coventry "Motordrome" badges made a few years back and they look absolutely fantastic, real or not.
Speaking of such things, you wouldn't like to sell that Rye House poster would you?
Post by haflinger121 on Jul 10, 2010 18:50:52 GMT 1
No worries Barry, if I owned it I wouldn't sell it either! Just while we are wandering off topic, I've only ever been to one wall of death, donkey's years ago on Ealing Common. They were most certainly riding Indians. I was fascinated by the bikes and the guy outside the arena, who was doing stunts on some rollers with one to attract the crowds. Me and my pal had gone there on our bikes, and at the end of the show, the announcer said if anybody would like to have a go, they could. We both fancied ourselves as riders and decided we would, but the girls we were with said 'Oh no you don't, how will we get home when you two are in hospital?' We vowed to go back the next night, and did, but the fair had moved on....
Getting back to Skirrows, Ivan now has the ex-Hughes car running and sent me this video. The quality's not great but still worth a look. We were wondering when a Skirrow last ran or was driven on UK soil...
Post by administrator on Jul 17, 2010 9:24:59 GMT 1
This information accompanies teh advert:
One of 3 known Skirrows and the best of the lot. Jack Brabham's first race car was a Skirrow. Chain driven four wheel drive courtesy of 1930's BSA 3 wheeler technology. American stuntman putt Mossman brought a pair of these back to the USA where famous speedway ace Cordy Milne raced one. Lots of untold history still required to be unearthed. Engine is custom built by J.A.P. for the Skirrow and utilizes massive magnesium cases and speedway type top end running on alcohol. Twin Amal track carburetors and twin BTH track racing magnetos. Engine was dismantalled for inspection and flywheel assembly sent to Alpha in the UK who did a perfect job. Heads are rebuilt. Still needs roller cam followers rebushed and new pistons. Engine sold dismantalled or can reassemble for shipping. Cams and engine in general in superb condition. Beautiful original patina and a crowd gatherer at any meet. seat cushion is missing. I have the original hood sides. I just removed them so that the engine could be seen. Even the original chain guards are there. Reluctant sale because I need the dough! Simple as that! Rare original Putt Mossman poster included. Car fits nicely in the back of a van! Famous Brooklands Brough Superior racer used a Skirrow JAP engine in his record breaking bike. I was initially going to use the engine in a replica bike but could not bring myself to follow through with that plan. call 1-613-273-5036 if you wish to discuss this. Check out my other rare stuff for sale. BARRY BROWN.
Post by memaerobilia on Jul 29, 2010 15:42:56 GMT 1
Hi Barry; I repeatedly told you, once you bought the car from me, at a price agreed to, it was yours to do with as YOU please. I was not concerned with any profit you might make, nor had/have any rights to dictate what a new OWNER wishes to do with HIS car. **BUT, you ASKED for comments.. I would rather never have seen this proposal of just selling the body & frame. I don't know if it is more Sad, or Horrific. You have a large collection with other High dollar value items. I sure wish you would just lower the prices on the Harley or one of the others, for a quick sale to raise the money you need. That Skirrow is a one of a kind-in all the world, and for the rest of all history, the ONLY orignal car in the same state as raced in 1936, unisturbed, unmodified. (I NOW believe that the number 7 was added sometime later, but can also be removed)I believe it even has the original paint from pre-war. We had 38 early midgets and did complete restorations on ALL of them, even winning "BEST of SHOW awards with them (It is NOT rare to win Best of Race Car class, but extemely rare to win Best of SHOW, including every other car of every type at a major auto show.) BUT...We "knew" it would be a tragedy of auto racing history to even, repaint , or even repair scratches or nicks or change the car in ANY way, as there would Never be another one to show the accurate history. Words and photos in a history book book would never convey the true, accurate record of what a Skirrow WAS, in the way this undistrubed Original does. You could never tell anyone, again, that you are a historian or that you have respect for what these cars and motorcycles are, and do, and what they and their builders and drivers, did. I thought it was a shame when you put all those "J.A.P. and and British decals etc on the car. That is NOT how it was. But at least those could be easily removed. We kept it undisturbed for 35 or so years, and it had been in a major U.S. museum fo years before that. I confess that I also "entertained" selling the engine, alone to a Brough restorer, as I needed the money at the time also. But I took less money NOT to do that, and destroy a unique car that could be studied and admired in a 1936 state. You say you have already experienced the excitement and appreciation that this car draws at auto shows and events. This is not some ugly, unsuccesful "Orphan" car that was deserted because there was little interest in it. It is and always will be, an important and unique car, IF left in Original state. Do as you must. *If your potential body buyer, already "has an engine," is it a J.A.P? If so, could you take the same price for the body and sell him the car intact, and keep HIS engine. instead of yanking the Original Skirrow engine? You would still have the same price and still have an engine??? I would NOT have commented, but you "asked" for comments.
Yes gentlemen I fully understand your points of view so hear me out too! I offered the car here FIRST well before Ebay and never heard a whisper. Now all the rocking chair historians and philanthropists are fretting ! Joe, glad to see you admit you first advertised the car on the Brough Superior site as a potential engine donar so do I detect a bit of hypocracy? The new owner tells me he will be installing a Chevy v8 and painting the car purple metal flake! Joe, you never took the car apart or did one iota of work to preserve it other than storing it. You also lost the original seat base.. I have VERY closely examined this car and it has been painted over as you would expect a race car to be. The pin striping is done over as electrical tape. Do you think that is original? There is also some debate as to the originality of the engine,. One rocker box is slightly different with allen head bolts. The cases have mismatched mating numbers. Several have told me JAP did not offer magnesium cases for twins pre war. In the new book on Brough Superiors, the author states that Noel Pope went to JAP and bought a Skirrow engine for his Brooklands record bike. As far as I know this bike has aluminum cases. Have any of you arm chair experts any knowledge of this? The potential new owner is a JAP engine expert. The car could not possibly be going into better hands. I am sure it will be built respecting the historical integrity and most importantly raced and demonstrated maybe even with a more original engine than is in it now. and probably with a patinated seat cushion and a new set of chains. By the way before you get your knickers in any more of a twist the decals are all vinyl peel off variety. Cheers, Barry